AD&D 2nd Confusion. Lots and lots of confusion.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:50 pm

Ok, that makes some kind of sense. Who wrote that shit?

Backstabbing seems to be pretty pointless in combat. Target needs to be unaware that you want to attack them. Dafuq?

Bah, the more I look at this, the less I want to multiclass. I find it hard to see the upside to being a thief in this game. At least without invisibility. Unless Hide in Shadows doesn't eat your actions AND the MC let's you use that at all after you have been spoted once. Just weird.

I don't really care for multiclass cleric.

Also tell me why warhammer specialization wins the game.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:21 pm

FrankTrollman wrote: In any case, if you have percentile strength, the difference isn't going to come up that often.

The difference between a dagger and a two-handed sword (vs. a large target) is an average of 2 pts. vs. 10.5 pts. That's a difference of 9.5 points, which is noticeably bigger than the difference between 10 Str and 18/00 Str.

EDIT: 8.5 points. Duh.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:03 am

Rawbeard wrote:Unless Hide in Shadows doesn't eat your actions AND the MC let's you use that at all after you have been spoted once.

actions? you get to do ONE thing on your turn...

you can declare an attempt to HiS at anytime, but shouldnt know if it is working until you get the job done, or someone notices you.

you also cannot hide in shadows when people are watching, cause you really arent hiding if they know you are there. if being spotted, you can get out of sight of everyone and get into shadows, then you are hiding.

2e is more turned based, and less action-based. now it is possible to play group v group rather than man v man/monster/whatever, so it will also depend on what initiative system you use: group or individual. then also if you use segments, weapon speed, etc. an "action economy" CAN be made to work for 2e, but doesnt come pre-loaded with it in the core books.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:31 am

Yeah, so I pretty much narrowed it down to Myrmidon Fighter. More weapon spec seems reasonable. But what weapon to chose? Any good swords except for two-handed vs large fools? And if I took two-handed sword is the two-hander style worth it, assuming MC uses speed factors at all?

I'd really like to pick two weapons, even without its style it's so nice to just be able to wield two weapons without having to set a trillion feats on fire.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:37 am

Theirs get mad xp using the optional rules GP found = XP earned, and the individual XP awards rule in the DMG. Individual rewards gives the their 200 XP (+10% for 15 plus DEX) each time you successfully use a their skill, and 2 XP per GP stolen (+10%), and you get up to 1,100 xp everytime you approach a new door (examine for traps, listen at door, pick the lock, hide in shadows, move silently), and you skyrocket through levels by stealing swag for the party.

Thiefs level the fastest, clerics level next (55 XP spell level cast and bonus spells, then fighters (11 XP per hit die of defeated enemy), then wizards (110 XP per spell level cast but no bonus spells and a harsh xp table)

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:01 am

I'm almost certain MC does not reward XP like that. But that's a nice reason to go thief. Oh well.

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:08 am

You could circumvent exceptional strength entirely by playing a monstrous race like Firbolg, Minotaur or Alaghi (bigfoot).

Nailing people to walls as a dart-wielding Minotaur Wizard with a 20 strength, would be obscene and hillarious.

You could do the same, or similar, as a Firbolg Shaman or Alaghi Druid, only you would be less of a glass cannon. You would have to settle for a mere 19 strength though.

As for 2 weapon fighting, you want ambidexterity, which sets your NWP on fire. You also get penalised unless your off hand weapon is small. A high dexterity can reduce the penalties further. 2 weapon fighting tends to be best when performed by a character with a class like Ranger, or by using a kit that negates the associated penalties.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:15 am

yeah... monstrous races. I might have mentioned I have a shitty community. I wanted to play a half-orc, because slitghly less 'standard' fantasy. MC got really nervous until I said 'but a dwarf is ok, too'.

sigh.

Ambidex doesn't seem to Interact with two weapon fighting, but I can see how to make a case for that. found it. Style also negates penalty and size restriction, don't need a kit for that.

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:35 am

Your dexterity reaction modifier reduces the penalty for fighting with two weapons; high DEX characters do not need ambidexterity to do their thing, but two weapon style specialization is needed to fight with 2 medium sized weapons. Two handed fighting (other than bows), single weapon empty hand, and unarmed attacking are all terribad and will give your dice cancer and your hands herpes, do not do them; sword and board (magical shields are pimp) or two weapon (your additional attack is done with your first attack of the round, the bonus attack from specialization resolve after everybody acts, and additional attacks are resolved after and so on) are the ways to go.

Exceptional strength is not only circumvented, but totally eclipsed by gauntlets + girdles; the only cool thing fighters get is +1~3 HP per hit die more than clerics.

The best magical weapons in the game are warhammers (check it out in the back of the DMG). Warhammers can be dual wielded, thrown, and are on the cleric weapon list (dual class!).

Dart builds are awesome and can be done at 1st level (weapon proficiency, specialization, two weapon style specialization, and ambidexterity), , but suffer from MAD (STR to damage, CON to live, DEX to hit); if you have the scores, totally go for it.

K · Post by K » Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:47 am

The best non-magic weapon in the game is the katana. I'd probably do that with Weaponsmithing(katana) since your chances of getting any kind of magic weapon is entirely random and a katana is basically a +2 longsword (+3 if exceptional, which it will be).

K · Post by K » Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:51 am

The best weapon style is bladesong. It has three functions, but the only important one is the function that gives you a Parry actions equal to your single-handed attacks. It's basically the only real damage mitigation in 2e for fighters other than very high AC, something you have little control over since treasure is random.

You have to be an elf to use bladesong, but being better than anyone else is worth it.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:15 am

K wrote:The best weapon style is bladesong. It has three functions, but the only important one is the function that gives you a Parry actions equal to your single-handed attacks. It's basically the only real damage mitigation in 2e for fighters other than very high AC, something you have little control over since treasure is random.

You have to be an elf to use bladesong, but being better than anyone else is worth it.

So elves with katanas are the best fighters? that sounds appropriate.

K · Post by K » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:35 am

OgreBattle wrote:
K wrote:The best weapon style is bladesong. It has three functions, but the only important one is the function that gives you a Parry actions equal to your single-handed attacks. It's basically the only real damage mitigation in 2e for fighters other than very high AC, something you have little control over since treasure is random.

You have to be an elf to use bladesong, but being better than anyone else is worth it.
So elves with katanas are the best fighters? that sounds appropriate.

Until your random magic weapon comes along, bladesong elves with katanas are the best.

You can try to make builds where you'll eventually have a Hammer of Thunderbolts, Gauntlets of Ogre Strength, a Girdle of Giant Strength, and Dragonscale Armor +5, but the game is a lot easier if you accept that the 1/5000 chance of getting all those things on one character is not worth designing a character around them (but remember, you won't get them until 13th or 14th level at the earliest anyway even if your luck is astronomical).

A Swashbuckler kit Fighter/Mage elf with a katana he crafted with his own Weaponsmithing and using Bladesong is something that you can do at level 1 and your character will be pretty awesome. You keep spells for non-combat stuff and run around stabbing fools for the levels where that is good and use spells for non-combat. When spells get good, you then take off the armor and just be a mage with great HPs and saves.

You might even get some elven chain at some point and get to do both, but don't hold you breath because the random treasure tables fucking hate you (YOU!). You'll probably wait for a long time, get Stoneskin and realize how awesome it is, and then be faced with the fact that swording was dumb many levels ago.

It's silly, but 2e is like that.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:46 am

This thread makes me want to play AD&D 2e now

A Dart throwing dwarf and Elf Samurai adventuring duo just sounds really stylish. I am more excited for this than 9 months of D&D5e playtest notes.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:02 pm

GâtFromKI wrote: Note that it takes one hour to memorize a 6th level spell.

The day of a high level 2e wizard looks like this: he wakes up, he memorizes a high level spell, then he tired because he spent one hour memorizing complicated stuff; since he can't memorize any other spell until he rests, he go back to sleep.

That's stupid, that's 2e. At least, attrition war affects wizards in this edition.

See, that's the awesome thing about rule negative two. It doesn't matter how much a particular interpretation completely wrecks a character or even the normal flow of gameplay -- as long as it's the most player-screwing interpretation you can come up with, it's the right one.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:37 pm

So I just stumbled over punching/wrestling and associated specialization. Looks like you can get stupid amounts of +hit/dmg out of it. Even with dmg being temporary it looks like you can murder fools quite ok with that. Any experiences with that?

Hicks · Post by **Hicks** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:21 pm

I'm pretty sure those rules are terrible. Damage is random and small and won't k.o. monsters, and punches can't be enchanted to hit shadows, ghosts, werewolves, demons, invisible or stalkers, or any other enemy requiring a +1 weapon or better.

Also, the rules for monk no armor style that appeared in the late 2e skills and powers series are terribad and will get you killed.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:34 pm

But I don't want to get killed

And this can't KO monsters? What the... that's what I get for skimming those books, but reading them carefully and completely makes me want to cut myself. No thanks! Internet might have made my ADD worse but spared me from going insane

Still don't know what to do with the free specialization. SQUIRREL!

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:42 pm

If you want to do unarmed, you are absolutely required by law to use the rules out of Complete Ninja. Because without Chi Strike, you are going to lose D&D the very moment a Wererat shows up. I don't actually know whether the martial arts in there are good or bad, because I never personally was able to overcome my innate shame at picking up a book called "Complete Ninja" long enough to figure out how it worked. Also, excited tirades by the kind of people who do read books like "Complete Ninja" are not unbiased reviews. But I do know that Complete Ninja handed out a way to spend proficiency slots in order to overcome magic weapons to-hit limits, and without that there is absolutely no way to matter as a punchilist no matter how many bonuses from different sources you Voltron together.

-Username17

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:09 pm

I don't really care for unarmed much, at least not in 'you need magic weapons' territory. But punching out an ogre, or troll sounded moderatly stupid, that's why I asked about it.

But seriously... Complete Ninja? Freakin' 90's. At least dwarves could become Ninjas. I hate myself for looking it up.

shadzar · Post by **shadzar** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:48 am

Teenage Mutant Ninja Bullywugs, Frogs with a katana! it was the 90s so...

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:22 am

High strength dwarves max out with a pair of specialised longswords via double style specialisation in two-weapons. I think there's a limiting rule somewhere, but it's height-based, so choose maximum height. 6' tall Dwarves are funny anyway. Don't sweat AC, magical field plate is fine.

For your second specialised weapon, get a strength longbow ASAP. 2 attacks, 1d8+5 or so, plus magic bow, plus magic arrows, plus flame arrow. Darts work better if you get the right items, but the longbow is usually easier to max out.

High Con and Dex are also nice, in that Dex works fine with heavy armour, and Con can double your hit points. But you take what you get. With a 14, drop it in Int for the extra weapon proficiencies. NWPs are for suckers, take blindfighting.

Also, get a henchman. You hire NPCs to adventure with you, "treat them well", and soon they're a free 2nd character that you also play. W00+!

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:38 am

Rawbeard wrote:So I just stumbled over punching/wrestling and associated specialization. Looks like you can get stupid amounts of +hit/dmg out of it. Even with dmg being temporary it looks like you can murder fools quite ok with that. Any experiences with that?

Unarmed combat in 2nd was terrible, random and bad. Attempts to fix the unarmed combat in various Complete splats made things confusing, terrible, random and bad.

And then the monsters laugh and just eat you.

Rawbeard · Post by **Rawbeard** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:55 am

Hiring henchmen or any kind of planning are out, we are stuck in some interplanar no mans land. Fun times.

My stats are Str 18/96 Dex 13 and Con 17. Rest around 9ish. meh. If I knew how easy Str items are to obtain with this MC I'd switch Str and Con. As is I prefer this setup for now.

What is that with additional weapon profs and high Int? Also those max attribute values for races are pre racial, or hardcaps?

Winnah · Post by **Winnah** » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:03 am

If you're going with dwarf, make your charachter as short as possible. You want to be Small and ride medium mounts in a dungeon if you can't get a flying mount.

I would avoid the Cavalier kit. Complete Dwarf has the Rapic Response Rider kit, which can start with a Griffon mount (DM fiat, so not gonna happen), or the Animal Master kit, which specialises in training animals like bears or giant lizards and starts with a free animal.

Or you could use another kit and ride a cheap Mule or an even cheaper Pig (boar). Bear is better, but whatever. The point is you get to lance people for double damage on a charge and you will be charging all the time.

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AD&D 2nd Confusion. Lots and lots of confusion.

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